Not quite, all the proofs or disproofs so far AFAIK were using existing methods that humans developed and were already using to attack the problems, but AI is just more thorough. What AI can't do currently is develop new mathematical methods to attack problems that can't be solved with existing methods and AFAIK there is no known path to get current gen AI to do so.
I think lesser known TLDs are the problem. I have had a .net domain and used the email address (and its self hosted these days, which has been a problem with sending to hotmail) and have never had it rejected or confuse anyone.
ON the other hand I had a website with a ccTLD and one guy kept trying to add .com to it - his own country's ccTLD!
I understand the sentiment and even feel it myself as a software engineer because there is/was so much ego wrapped up in these kind of skills. However, I have kind of gotten over it because I am now hopeful that AI may now help us solve problems at a much faster rate now that we could before and I think this is actually exactly what we need right now to solve things like climate change etc. If that means that humans don't get all the credit anymore then oh well, at least we may actually have the chance to solve some big issues now.
All tools can be used for good and for evil, be used both responsibly and irresponsibly, and end up being helpful or hurtful. The use of algorithms to solve problems and find solutions has already proved useful, the algorithms marketers want us to call AI are not different. AI seems more likely to contribute to climate change than cure it, but there are appropriate places for that technology and science is one of them. It just come down to how it's being used.
You have to cache, cloudflare doesn't know all the records ahead of time, they have to do recursive lookups to the authoritative servers that own the records and that is only good for the period of the TTL of the record. There is no "global" DNS record database or something like that.
You can define away ‘stale’ by picking a consistency model, but look inside the consistency machinery and you will see fresher data you aren’t allowed to have yet.
That's like refusing to use a fridge, insisting on letting your produce gradually spoil on the counter because "all harvested produce is in a state of decay anyway".
No, it's using a fridge in the understanding of the fundamental limitations of fridges.
You asked ‘why would
I want to use a service that serves stale data’. The answer is you don’t want to. But if you have a distributed system your only choices are about the nature of the possible staleness, since global instantaneous consistency is known to be impossible due to fundamental features of the universe.
In that case you're (intentionally?) misinterpreting what I originally said. The person I replied to was metaphorically suggesting turning the temperature dial on the fridge way up and I metaphorically asked why I would want to eat at his house if he's going to be serving me spoiled food.
My original question could also be described as asking why I would choose to shop at a grocer where items on the shelf are routinely far past the printed expiry date. That's perhaps a more direct analogy.
In DNS, the owner of each record has full control over its TTL. Intermediary DNS servers are required to honor them and are not permitted to replace TTLs with their own.
Actually that is not true. The IETF has expanded the definition of “TTL” and explicitly permits resolvers to serve “stale” RRs beyond their expiration time.
You are obliged to pass on the TTL, you're not obliged to cache according to it.
At least in my country (UK) I know of no law relating to DNS caching.
Why throwaway perfectly good data every few minutes that is only modified every couple of years, just so someone can move their domain quickly when they eventually wish to? It is my contention that a [caching] DNS service can do far better. Trusting user (domain owner) input blindly is not for me.
It's not some sort of public law with public enforcement, but it is in the RFCs that govern the protocol.
I should be a bit clearer here; the TTL is an upper bound on how long it can be cached. Caches are free to consult more frequently but not less frequently. That said, out of respect for upstream cache operators and authoritative servers, most DNS caches honor TTLs as best they can.
No, but if you didn’t, the internet wouldn’t really work all that well. It was the fact that participants, despite being independent, all agreed (either explicitly or implicitly) to adhere to the standards that it became a global network. If they hadn’t, the result would have been more of the same: independent networks that only had narrow interoperability at best. It’s a textbook example of how global cooperation can yield incredible results.
Advocating to do things against agreed-upon standards without a compelling reason and without giving due consideration to the adverse consequences is one of the hallmarks of a bad engineer. Even Microsoft played nice with Internet standards for the most part (although with some notable exceptions at the application layer that got them well-deserved criticism).
It's impossible to know how often participants chose to stick to the standards anyway despite it not being in their best interest. Do you have any specific examples?
Linux routers responding ICMP from 192.0.0.8 when not having an IP address (currently being standardized). Clouds using class E address space (240.0.0.0-255.255.255.254). Routers that drop IP packets with options. The entire concept of NAT until the existing behavior was eventually standardized. Unnumbered interfaces.
I think all of those are examples of "[doing] things against agreed-upon standards [with] a compelling reason and [with] due consideration to the adverse consequences".
I think the flexibility issues is more that you can't easily do things that used to be trivial. Try to spin up a bunch of headless wayland gnome sessions with VNC on a modern linux distro running on a server, it basically can't be done. This was trivial in the past, you just launched an X11 server for each one and handed it to VNC and you were done.
i like the idea of wayland but i agree about the loss of flexibility. they seem very concerned about security and make screen sharing very complex now if you stray from the accepted path. systemd complicates this further with logind seat management etc. as a result our companies dev servers where we run a bunch of simultaneous VNCs and independent mate desktop sessions can really only work with X11 for now. There is a way to do it with nested cgroups running n number of systemd instances etc but its a pain and then we would have to use gnomes built in rdp thing which we dont want to use… anyway i actually vibe coded a way to get it working with wayland in containers with a dummy kernel video driver, my own fake logind etc. etc. etc. it was a harrowing experience but fun.
I just fix a long standing bug on my Linux desktop I have had for years and kept meaning to look into to see if I could fix. The issue was I have a sound blaster katana sound bar and it works okay but the volume on the device is not in sync with the volume in Linux. In Windows it stays in sync. I can work around it by each time I boot, I press the button to go to max volume, then lower the volume in Linux to the desired level but it's been an annoyance. I described the issue to codex and within a few minutes it had it fixed by updating the pipewire device profiles to use the volume control it exposes. Honestly amazing since I doubt I would have ever gotten around to figuring this out since I didn't even know what level of the stack the issue was, I thought maybe it was in the driver itself.
You just gave me an idea to fix lots of little annoyances in my old Linux laptop that had been retired because of those! Maybe the old little laptop can still give me a few more years of fun.
Stuff like this is so nice, I wonder where it will go in the future. Recently on my PC I had a failed windows update that killed the bluetooth driver, I tried to fix it for over an hour and got no where (even consulting chat gpt). I just let codex loose with full authority on the problem and the driver was working again in 5 minutes with no reboot needed.
They also have ability to go deep and wide in a way that humans just can't. We have limits, get tired, distracted and biased where AI does not. I think there a lot of problem where all the information needed to solve them is there, but we just can't put the pieces together. Like no matter how many people you throw at some problems, you hit human limits and more people won't help, but AI will because it is just relentless.
Not really the kind of biased I meant though. There was a recent article about a AI disproving I think an Erdos conjecture by doing similar things humans have tried, but it was much messier and less "beautiful". I think it is a common bias in science and math that things should be "beautiful" but there is no real reason to think that.
Wouldn't a counter this argument be biological systems? These are reasonable points as long as we are talking about current methods, but I assume if we were to get to the point of self replicating probes it would be done by something like nanotechnology, synthetic biology like systems.
Why would biological systems be a counterargument? Smelting metals and sustaining life both require an enormous amount of water and about ~1ATM of atmosphere, as far as we know, and there's no plausible known mechanism for sidestepping this requirement. So "magical synthetic biology that can self-replicate in space" is actually a worse solution to the problem than "magical metallurgy that can be done in space" since humans at least have smelted metals, but we've never built synthetic forms of life. (Not counting CRISPR)
You're making assumptions that the parent isn't necessarily making. Imagine sending humans to other earthlike planets on hypothetical generation ships. Those humans could throw away their technology and rebuild from zero over thousands of years to send more spaceships of humans to yet further planets. Presto, an example of self-replicating biological von Neumann systems.
It's important to say that isn't self-replicating in the von Neumann sense, even setting aside the question of how it's being executed. Humans don't replicate, we reproduce and critically evolve, never more quickly or drastically then when we're introduced to a new environment with new selection pressures. Unless these future humans have the technology to avoid that natural drift then they won't be a probe for the original species in any sense, they will speciate. In fact if you send people on a one-way trip to start over from scratch, I think it's pretty extreme to imagine their nth descendants caring about the goals of the parent civilization. Even if they in turn become spacefaring it's not as though they'll act as "probes" for their ancient and probably forgotten ancestors.
There are decades old papers [0] on this subject that explicitly use humans as a analogy and call it "reproduction" because of the need to learn or evolve for local conditions. I don't think using terms in a way they've been used since the first serious analysis of the concept is going to confuse anyone.
I think it's pretty extreme to imagine their nth descendants caring about the goals of the parent civilization.
It's an example to demonstrate the concept in familiar terms, not a psychohistorical prediction.
Somewhat famously with life, you aren't necessarily replicating the same thing at the end as you are at the beginning, which is an awkward property for an engineered system.
So that adds some extra "benefits" (mutation and natural selection improves the probes over time) along with some extra difficulties - how do you keep the self-reproducing probes "on-task" from one generation to the next? How do you instill "explore and report home" as an innate goal to a mutating system?
I'd argue all self-replicating systems subject to entropy (i.e. existing in the physical world) are automatically subject to mutation and natural selection and, therefore, alive and able to evolve around any innate goals or constraints. If the inmate goal isn't tied to a highly-conserved phenotype I would think the goal would disappear as mutations accumulate and natural selection takes its toll.
Judging by our behavior on the current rock we're on, don't give them the choice. Humanity has been around for a long time. In that time, I don't believe I've ever heard discussion of changing the direction the Sun and Earth are headed. If there were something deep inside the Earth, or another planet that would activate in another 10,000 years that would do the phone home step, we still don't know about it. So while we're hypothesizing about sci-fi Von Neumann probes, just scale the entire thing up to the size of a solar system and send that off in the right direction. Collect all the mass in our system that isn't Sol, Terra, (and Luna), and build a rogue planet with an underground civilization, and then don't give them engines. Unless the civilization on the planet advances too the point that they can create engines, decide they don't want to go where you've sent them, voila, generational ship. Just bury a computer deep I side the rogue planet's core that activates once it reaches the destination.
I would argue that, over the time scales at which Von Neumann probes would hypothetically spread, “report home” may be a useless or even wasteful requirement. Even if somebody were still around to hear the message, what is the likelihood that they would still be listening? Or be able to interpret it?
If we build self-replicating machines and send them out into the universe we're really just sending out our evolutionary progeny. Hopefully they would remember us fondly.
I think it applies to non-biological Von Neumann probes as well. It'll apply to any system that can mutate, even if that mutation is just cosmic rays flipping the bits on a hard drive.
Biology ignored some of the most abundant elements because they can't be worked with under the constrained temperature and pressure conditions where biological systems operate. Biology barely uses any silicon, even though it is the second-most common element in the biosphere. Biology does not use aluminum, the third-most common element, at all. Biology does use iron but cannot reduce it to the pure metal. In fact, biological systems produce no metals. Structurally, biology relies on weak minerals like calcium carbonate and calcium phosphate, rather than much stronger ones like quartz and alumina, because of the difficulty of biochemical processing.
This isn't insurmountable for a probe. Biology can get stuck in local optima. Humans have the Periodic Table and quantum mechanics. But it means we are on untrodden ground. Refining titanium, today, uses a massive molybdenum-lined reactor operating at 1600 C (2900 F). The alternative processes (FFC and Chinuka) use liquid calcium chloride, mp 773 C. The square-cube law points to enormous energy losses trying to scale these processes down. And that's just one element.
> Wouldn't a counter this argument be biological systems? These are reasonable points as long as we are talking about current methods, but I assume if we were to get to the point of self replicating probes it would be done by something like nanotechnology, synthetic biology like systems.
Biological systems require extremely specific environments that aren't space.
Yeah, you can self-replicate (well, not exactly self-replicate), but just think of all the "infrastructure" you need to do that: massive volumes of air and water, all kinds of weird chemicals not found in minerals, a whole biosphere of other stuff, a literal star, etc. And none of that infrastructure is really space-worthy on any reasonable scale for a probe.
If you broke it all down, I bet you'd need a mass/volume at least as big as a more technological probe. And you still need the technological infrastructure to build a vessel to hold it all together.
Yes, I was wondering why the focus on metals. (Admittedly they might be needed in trace amounts for catalysis, or convenient for conductors, etc., or for structural material if you're on a carbon-poor asteroid. Most metals are worse than carbon for the latter if you have reasonably high tech.)
The thing is, while the universe is full of metals, it's not that full of the materials needed to sustain life (as we know it, at least). You can find metals and other inorganic compounds on virtually every asteroid, moon, and planet, and many comets even. But water and nitrogen and carbon are significantly rarer.
Plus, life can't survive more than a few minutes in space without metal encasings and electronic life support; whereas metal alone only requires life at a much longer time scale. So, while it may be possible to build a fully inorganic self-replicating fleet, it's certainly impossible to build a fully-organic one with any technology or chemistry we know about today at least.
In the outer solar system organics and water are abundant (and in the inner there are plenty of carbonaceous chondrites, admittedly not the most generic inner-system bodies).
Agreed that metals should unlock wider opportunities in the inner system where solar energy is more abundant. I just don't think it matters much, you need a good place to plant your seed; once you've built up to scale you can then build wherever.
(False that life dies in minutes in space; plus the engineers can invest in even greater error correction than radiodurans.)
> (False that life dies in minutes in space; plus the engineers can invest in even greater error correction than radiodurans.)
What form of life can actually survive (that is, continue living, not just go into some dormant state from which it can later resurrect like a tardigrade) in space for more than a few minutes?
Not in rocky bodies, except maybe for Oxygen (which is commonly found in the form of oxides, very rarely as a gas). Carbon and Nitrogen and Hydrogen and similar elements are mostly found in gas clouds and star that are not really conducive to any form of life or even really fit for extraction by a probe. Maybe some gas giants could be targets for a process of this kind?
Life as we know it relies on a complex and interdependent ecosystem, and complex life relies on countless other organisms to support us. Without plants we absolutely couldn’t survive, without microorganisms we can’t survive. Without ample supplies of food, water and oxygen we can’t function.
Generally speaking the pace of biological activity is a lot slower than industrial ones too. We might make up for the pace with scale, but then you’re back to the hard problem of dependencies and “fuel”.
I’m not sure that the problem of beneficiation changes because the system is biological rather than industrial. Edit: Without carrying whole ecosystems with the probe at least.
You’re absolutely right about how quickly some bacteria can replicate, but that depends on the proper substrate, ambient conditions, availability of nutrients, and any competition from contaminants.
What something like E. Coli can do in a well bioreactor is the ideal case, and even then most of what they produce is the bacteria themselves. On Earth this isn’t a problem at all, but as a means of husbanding every joule because you don’t know when or where the next one is coming from, I think it might matter.
It’s also probably a genuinely hard problem keeping your organisms viable without a constant supply of food, a means to get rid of mutants, or some hitherto unknown means of preservation that could handle the extreme time spans involved between “awakenings”.
Mainly my point there is that it doesn't seem reasonable to anchor advanced nanotechnology on the doubling times we're used to for industry. I don't want to guess just what to expect for early construction from a starseed arriving at e.g. an outer-solar-system carbon-rich moon -- but nothing like a human generation.
Carbon does not beat metal structurally. Some organic polymers are competitive in tensile strength. In flexural strength and fracture toughness, alloys continue to rule. And when carbon materials are competitive in strength and toughness, they tend to be highly temperature-sensitive and have sudden failure modes, which is not great for operating in space. Consider e.g. the Titan submarine that failed due to carbon fiber composite fatigue.
... but traveling for months, years, decades and millennia in space away from earth has proven difficult so far. Even astronauts in space for a year had significant changes afterwards.
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